Paddy - We're the future

[Mark]

PATRICK VIEIRA has warned Manchester United and the other Premiership hopefuls that Arsenal are the team of the future.


And the French midfielder insisted that the key will be their inactivity on the transfer market.

He said: “Last year, we gave the championship to Manchester United. We were the better team.

“This season we are going for stability and, as the squad has not changed much, we know each other even better.

“We still have a step up to take to reach Real Madrid but, for me, Arsenal is still the team of tomorrow.

“The English season will be another Arsenal-Manchester United duel while having to count, too, with Liverpool, Newcastle and Chelsea.

“Manchester United and Arsenal are used to winning the title. They know how it is done.”

Vieira ended months of speculation last week by signing a contract keeping him at Highbury until summer 2007.

But he admitted he still dreams of playing for Spanish giants Real Madrid at some stage in his career.

He added: “I have made a choice and, sincerely, I think it was the best one to make. Yes, everyone dreams of Real Madrid and that is normal when you see the players that make up their side.

“But if they win the Champions League it will be no surprise. If they get knocked out, they will have stones thrown at them.

“For me, there are more important things — being happy in my private life. I am fulfilled in London. That’s where it all happens.”

Vieira also took a swipe at big- spending London rivals Chelsea.

He said: “Chelsea have made a lot of signings and, if they get the mix right, they will be very strong.

“They can beat anyone over one match but we'll have to see how the players are going to be together, whether they can string results together.”

[Boovy]

Originally posted by Mark@Aug 18 2003, 12:28 AM
He said: “Last year, we gave the championship to Manchester United. We were the better team.

Has he still not swallowed all those sour f***** grapes and let it go?

Bottom line is the best team wins the league no matter how many times they f***** say it

[Jere Markus]

ooohhh... touched a spot there..

Paddy´s quote was too close to the truth, hence Boovy´s reaction.

[ticcan123]

Well Man Utd have far more young players who will be the future, Arsenal seem to have very few. I think Paddy was stating a desperate hope rather than a belief By the time Arsenal have money again, Viera will be retired anyway, i can only see Arsenal going backwards a bit over the next few years with no money to spend.

[The Gunner]

Arsenal's team can hardly be considered old and if you are saying that Arsenal has fewer outstanding players, then you are probably underestimating Arsenal's youth set-up.

[Mark]

well if they're English players I think it would be fair to do so since Wenger seems to hate em lol

[ticcan123]

Originally posted by The Gunner@Aug 18 2003, 11:52 AM
Arsenal's team can hardly be considered old and if you are saying that Arsenal has fewer outstanding players, then you are probably underestimating Arsenal's youth set-up.

Well there is not much evidence it is producing any talent to play in your first team.

[The Gunner]

Well, Man Utd's newest purchases dun seem to be very English either... it's the growing trend of the Premiership these days to get foreigners.. so no worries.

[ticcan123]

I think Mark was talking about Youth team players not transfers.

Ours youth players are British - or Irish in O'Shea - , and some as you know play in the first team

[The Gunner]

Well, most club's youth team consists mainly of british players.. yes, even Arsenal. And if you're talking about producing players to break into the first team, Man Utd hasn't done that in quite a while after the Beckam & gang crop. The only players to have made it so far are Wes Brown and John O'Shea who now seems to have lost their places to Silvestre and Quinton Fortune respectively. That's very comparable to Arsenal's Ashley Cole and Stuart Taylor being brought up so far. As for potential youngsters, Man Utd's got their Kieran Richardson and Darren Fletcher while Arsenal's got Pennant, Volz, Aliadiere, Garry, Bentley. I'd say Arsenal's future is as well covered as Man Utd's barring any further signings.

[ticcan123]

O'Shea had a knock and has certainly not been supplanted by Fortune!

Most teams can name talented youth team prospects but they are just that until they emerge into the first team. And out of every 5 or so hot prospects only one usually emerges as being an actual talent.

So assuming Man Utd and Arsenal have equal youth set ups, which i think we both know is not the case due to recent results Man Utd still have more more youth in the first team.

Imagine 3-4 years from now, when assuming u still have no cash due to building teh stadium, what team can u name from players who have played in the first team - or have proven their ability somewhere....

Man Utd could be

Howard

Brown
Ferdinand
Silvestre
O'Shea

Ronaldo
Djemba
Kleberson
Butt
Richardson - unproven

RvN

Thats with no players coming through - except richardson - and no signings.

[The Gunner]

Sheesh, you said youth team, not transfers.

Howard, Ferdinand, Silvestre, Ronaldo, Djemba, Kleberson and RvN are all transfers. Butt's from the old batch and that leaves only Brown and O'Shea and real 'home-grown' products if that's what you were referring to. I agree that Richardson and Fletcher are only prospects until they make the first team.

With regards to the Arsenal team, who can I name?

GK - Taylor

Defence - Lauren, Ashley Cole, Campbell, Toure

Midfield - Viera, Ljungberg, Gilberto

Forward - Henry, Jeffers, Kanu

All the players I've mentioned have played a fair amount of premiership football and barring Toure and Gilberto have all won the double. None of them are older than 28 which the the age of the older player you named, Butt. In fact, only Viera and Campbell are above 26. I've not even included Pennant, Aliadiere and Volz who some believe are capable of first-team soccer and Edu, Wiltord and GvB who while are not great players, have their part to play in the team. I'd say the team is very well covered for the future.

Guys like Kleberson, Djemba, Ronaldo and Howard have nowhere near the premiership experience of any of the players I have named and while I admit some of these already look like excellent buys, they've not yet proven they can produce the goods on a consistent basis.

Therefore, I say that Man Utd have more 'youth' in their team is a moot point. If I spend 12.5 mil on a 'youth' like Ronaldo, I wouldn't really consider him a youth product. And that applies to Kleberson, Djemba and Howard who were all brought in for a couple of million each at least.

[Jere Markus]

First: I must admit that I envy the youth system of top teams like Pool, ManU and Real Madrid where they almost every year introduce one youngester from the ranks to challenge for first team:

Pool
Owen
Fowler
Carragher
Gerrard

ManU
Brown
OShea
Greening (oops)
the older gang of Becks, Scholes, Butt etc

Real
Helguera
Casillas
Morientes
Raul
Guti
Bravo
Pavon

It´s clear that Arsenal has been unable to do the same.

[quote]Man Utd still have more more youth in the first team[\QUOTE]

are there any players in the ARsenal XI that are as old as Keano or Gary Neville (Barthez) or Ole? (maybe Lehmann now) I don´t think there are many.. as said:

[quote]players I've mentioned have played a fair amount of premiership football and barring Toure and Gilberto have all won the double. None of them are older than 28 which the the age of the older player you named, Butt. In fact, only Viera and Campbell are above 26[\QUOTE]

it´s clear that Arsenal starters are younger in average than United starters. Don´t let it fool you that youngsters like Vieira, AShley, Freddie.. etc. have already won couple of doubles. The saying "old, old Arsenal" is getting old.. there is no basis in reality. As much as for "boring, boring Arsenal".

But it also is deceiving that players like Scholes, Giggs and Becks (oops) are still relatively young but have already won everything in the club level (will never win nothing in international level though).

[ticcan123]

I was responding to your..........

'i'd say Arsenal's future is as well covered as Man Utd's barring any further signings." In the total sense rather than just what u can produce, which is a moot point.

In that sense i would say Man Utd have more for the future, be it 4 years or 10 years. To get off the point of youth, if Arsenal cant strengthen their squad with signings and assuming they bring through as many young players as Man Utd i cant see how they will continue to compete as well as they are now.

[ticcan123]

[quote=Jere Markus,Aug 18 2003, 04:35 PM] [quote]it´s clear that Arsenal starters are younger in average than United starters. Don´t let it fool you that youngsters like Vieira, AShley, Freddie.. etc. have already won couple of doubles. The saying "old, old Arsenal" is getting old.. there is no basis in reality. As much as for "boring, boring Arsenal". [\QUOTE]

I have never accused Arsenal of being old. In fact i would say they lack of experienced - in age terms - first team members may have been what cost you in the run in. I know quite a few of your players have won the league a couple of times. But players like Scholes, Giggs, Keane, Becks etc etc are older and have won at least about 5 each and doing it year after year gives u the experience not to crack at the end.

I think you need some players around 30 - some mid 20's and some young ones, that and/or lots of experience of title run ins is whats needed at the crunch.

[Boovy]

Manchester United have some fantastic youth coming through the ranks

Kieran Richardson
Darren Fletcher
Bojan Djordjic
Luke Steele
Sylvain Blake
Mads Timm
Wes Brown
John O Shea

To name just a few off the top of my head, also considering Manchester United have recently won the youth alternative to the European Cup I don't think you have the right to be questioning our youth talent Jere

[Jere Markus]

Jeremeister said:

I must admit that I envy the youth system of top teams like Pool, ManU and Real Madrid where they almost every year introduce one youngester from the ranks to challenge for first team:

[The Gunner]

Originally posted by Boovy@Aug 18 2003, 03:51 PM
Manchester United have some fantastic youth coming through the ranks

Kieran Richardson
Darren Fletcher
Bojan Djordjic
Luke Steele
Sylvain Blake
Mads Timm
Wes Brown
John O Shea

To name just a few off the top of my head, also considering Manchester United have recently won the youth alternative to the European Cup I don't think you have the right to be questioning our youth talent Jere

As Ticcan said, barring O'Shea and Wes Brown, the rest are just prospects until they make it into the first team. I can throw off alot of Arsenal youth names who have won the youth FA Cup and Premierships previously but until now none have made the first team. Of coz, 'talent' in its pure meaning is present it both teams. How much talent actually fulfills its potential is another issue. Anyway, no one is questioning Man Utd's lack of youth talent. In fact, I think Jere praised them for their youth setup.

Arsenal no experience? lol. I've heard many complaints that Seaman, Keown, Luzhny and Bergkamp were getting too old but seldom have I heard complaints that Arsenal lacked experience.

It's true Arsenal cannot strengthen their squad with the type of big-budget buys Man Utd and Chelsea are capable off. But if Wenger can pull off some solid free transfers or bargains, it'd be the same thing. Sol Campbell came on a free but I'm sure few will argue he's not worth every penny spent on Ferdinand. And if the youth Arsenal do manage to bring through are good players, they'll still be able to compete the same as any other team. Man Utd's success was built on a crop of youngsters like Beckham, Giggs etc. that hardly cost the club anything in terms of transfer fees. If Arsenal can pull off the same thing, who needs transfers? Anyway, you can only field so many people in a team. As long as there are 20 or so players who are up to the task in the team, there isn't really any need to dole out the cast. Even if transfers have to be made, it is only in specific areas.

[ticcan123]

But given there is no evidence that either MAn Utd or Arsenal youngsters will come through - or to suggest one clubs are more likely than the others plus no transfers how do u expect to keep up?

Sure Campbell was an outstanding transfer, but they happen v v rarely. Lets assume Arsenal spend 5m a season for the next 4 years and MAn Utd spend 20m+ in the same period, you cant tell me you expect to get the same quality for a quarter of the money. Sooner or later its gonna start to make a difference.

You do have a first team - not sure about the defence - to equal Man Utd now, but take out Campbell, or Viera through injury etc and you will struggle, take out Ferdinand and we can play Brown - if he is fit, or Gary Neville, or O'Shea or even Keane, if we lose Keane we can play Djemba, or Butt or Kleberson - or O'Shea again, of course none are as good as the player they replace but we can replace with a similar quality, Arsenal it seems cannot. And that is what will hurt you iin the next few years, not your first team

[The Gunner]

Firstly, let's put things in perspective. Arsenal's stadium is supposed to be finished in 2006/7 (barring any mishaps or further complications), so that's 3 more seasons we have to hold out. After that, we'll be able to compete with Man Utd on a respectable if not equal financial footing. Now, 3 years is a long time, but I believe our first team is young enough to hold out for that long with the addition of a few youngsters and wise purchases. If we can get at least one more Campbell like deal in this 3 years, it'd be considered a great coup for us.

Money definitely buys quality (most of the time anyway), and yes, if Man Utd continue to spend 20mil a year while Arsenal spend 5, we'll be a weaker team in 4 years time. However, most of our first team are man for man some of the best in the world so there is not an urgent need to replace them. After all, you can only field so many players in a team. The important thing is for this team to hold together for the next 3 years which is basically Wenger intends when he said he was putting the stadium first. Furthermore, an argument as to how we can match Man Utd's quality without splashing the cash is to take Senderos for example. He is has as much hype and potential surrounding him as Cristiano Ronaldo, but he cost us an estimated 1 - 2 mil while Ronaldo cost 12.5 mil and both are the same age. That's the buys we will have to go for and if anyone can do it, it's Wenger.

If Campbell is out, we can field Toure, Cygan or even Gilberto. If we lose Viera, we can field Parlour, Edu or GvB. As you said, none as good to the original, but capable of doing the job.

[ticcan123]

True about Senderos, but Defenders take a lot longer to become good than midfielders/attackers. And am not sure he has had quite the hype ronaldo has

And we all saw what happened last season when u replaced Campbell with Cygan and Viera with Edu, it wasnt pretty!

but good points nonetheless Nice to see someone who can actually have a discussion without accusing the other person of being biased, or dumb, or anything they can think of lol

[Jere Markus]

Sooner or later its gonna start to make a difference

This is true. That´s why Wenger insisted Arsenal get a bigger ground.. for the future. And to be able to challenge ManU financially in the future. He sacrificed 2-3 years for that.. Wenger sees the big pic.

without accusing the other person of being biased, or dumb, or anything they can think of

have you been talking to jimlad lately?

potential surrounding him as Cristiano Ronaldo, but he cost us an estimated 1 - 2 mil while Ronaldo cost 12.5 mil and both are the same age. That's the buys we will have to go for and if anyone can do it, it's Wenger

Wenger has the knack of finding the good buys: Anelka, Vieira, Freddie, Pires.. you know the list. He prefers to pay 5mil for a find as Fergie pays 25 mil or more for a "sure thing"

[ticcan123]

"without accusing the other person of being biased, or dumb, or anything they can think of"

Half the ppl on here actually lol hmmmmmmm even you once as i recall


Fergie only paid 25+ twice and is taking the Wenger route more this season, which i think is good. Wenger hasnt found any Viera's or Pires's for a while now

[The Gunner]

Originally posted by ticcan@Aug 18 2003, 04:49 PM
Fergie only paid 25+ twice and is taking the Wenger route more this season, which i think is good. Wenger hasnt found any Viera's or Pires's for a while now

He was, until he bought Cristiano Ronaldo

It's true Wenger hasn't found any Vieras or Pires in a while. Gilberto seemed a successful buy enough, but isn't really in the realms of 'major successes' like Viera, Anelka and Pires.

Ronaldo's hype was probably about the same as Senderos', though Ronaldo had the benefit of playing at a higher profile club like Sporting Lisbon. However, it was only Ronaldo's first season there so alot of his potential is still left to be seen. I agree Defenders take a longer time to develope coz experience plays a very big part in their game. But there have been successful defenders who have started young like Ferdinand, Tony Adams and Woodgate and they got better with age.

Replacing with Campbell with Cygan and Viera with Edu wasn't pretty but beggars can't be choosers. Anyway, they did put in some promising if not at least decent performances. But currently i'd stick with Toure and Parlour to fill those positions if required.

as for having a discussion, that's what's supposed to happen in a 'discussion' forum, rite? lol :Kenzo's Smiley

[ticcan123]

Well £12m is hardly breaking the bank these days.

Do you think you can win the league if Viera or Campbell are missing for a number of games and are replaced by Edu/Parlour or Cygan/Toure?

You would think this is a place for discussion wouldnt u lol Seems a lot of ppl are more interested in slagging you off than actually discussing your point of view.