Holland's Full Squad Announced.

[Fins Prompte]

Holland coach Dick Advocaat has left Clarence Seedorf and Ronald De Boer out of his 22-man squad to play Austria and the Czech Republic in the Euro 2004 qualifiers.

Arjen Robben and Andy van der Meyde have been called up instead.


FULL SQUAD

Van der Sar, Waterreus, Reiziger, F de Boer, Van Bronckhorst, Ooijer, Stam, Zenden, Sneijder, Bosvelt, Van Bommel, Overmars, Cocu, Davids, Van Hooijdonk, Robben, Van der Meyde, Makaay, Hasselbaink, Van Nistelrooij, Kluivert, van der Vaart.

What can you tell me about Robben? Is that the young Ajax Sneijder in there as well?

[Van Der Vaart 23]

I just wanted to post that, but you beat me to it IBES :)

Finally, has Advocaat learned, I hope so!

Robben is a fantastic player, which I must honestly say, find it a pity he chose psv over Ajax. He should always be in the Dutch National Team squad. He's a dribbler, playing similar to Giggs. Is a winger, fast, good dribbles, quite good crosses and scores quite often for a winger. He should deffo always be in this squad since he's much better than Zenden. I think Overmars is still better than him, but Robben is coming close and I think after Euro '04 he'll be a regular in the National Team. Although he could be already if Advocaat put Overmars on the right and Robben on the left.

And yes, Sneijder is the Ajax youngster, he already made his debut and has 2 caps till now. I think he'll be replacing Cocu after Euro 2004 :)

[Interista]

I really don't understand why Kluivert, van Hooijdonk and Davids are still in the selection. Davids has lost his place at Juventus because of an excellent playing Appiah and Kluivert doesn't have the creativity to be of any importance of Holland. and van Hooijdonk is much too old for a striker to be of an importance. He doesn't have the pace and awkwardly scrounges off his free kicks and headers. vd Meyde and Arjen Robben are good calls and are much better the Ronald de Boer and Seedorf.

[Fins Prompte]

Sorry VDV, but you know when it comes to Holland, I am always sniffing around for any bits and pieces of news. BTW, on my flight from Mexico City to the States, I was seated next to a married Dutch couple and it was great talking to the old man since he answered many questions of mine regarding the dutch. It helped that they were Ajax fans as well. :)

[Fins Prompte]

Just because Davids has not done well in Juve, does not mean his form with fellow teammates that he has played along with for the last 7 years has been different. I doubt Hooijdonk will play, it is just you have select 22 and he maybe wants to have team B be a competitive team for team A in practice games.

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Originally posted by Interista@Sep 1 2003, 05:14 PM
I really don't understand why Kluivert, van Hooijdonk and Davids are still in the selection. Davids has lost his place at Juventus because of an excellent playing Appiah and Kluivert doesn't have the creativity to be of any importance of Holland.
Sorry Interista, but this makes no sense at all..

Kluivert no creativity??

Let's assume ur right, but if his creativity is not decent enough, than how the hell should we rate the creativity of our other strikers?? :o :o :o :o :o

You aint gonna tell me that v.Nistelrooy/Makaay and Hasselbaink are more creative than Kluivert is :laugh :laugh :laugh

And about Davids; it has nothing to do with Edgars game/form, Juventus just want to create a fight with him cause his contract ends and he hasn't signed a new one yet. That's why Appiah plays, they want to force him to sign a new one by not letting him play.. That sucks, but I can understand Juve that they don't wanna let him leave on a free..

[NAC-BREDA]

Im happy Seedorf and R de Boer has been left out.
the first half against Belgium was a dissaster.
But im afraid that this is not enough to get good results against Austria and Tjechie.


I hope that players like Kluivert,Cocu,Davids,f de Boer know that its now or NEVER.
This is there last chance and they must win BOTH matches.
With anything less then that they must quit the national team and let new young players come fight for oure national team.

And then its also time for Advocaat to leave and then let Van Basten it over.
But lets first hope that we win both matches and we can go to Portugal.

We got super players but a very bad team.

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Originally posted by NAC-BREDA@Sep 1 2003, 05:39 PM
And then its also time for Advocaat to leave and then let Van Basten it over.
hehe, I think v.Basten first need to gain some experience elsewhere.. I think that Koeman will take over when they've failed again...

Anyway, I think it would be best if Holland drew or lost to Austria! In case that happens, Holland needs to win and they KNOW than that they really have to give evertying to get to EURO '04. If they win, after playing bad again, than they'll go to Czech Republic with the same stinking attitude.. sadly Czech Republic will finish us off the hard way than! It wouldn't be bad to be finished off the hard way once, but it wouldn't be too good to us that that would happen in the most important match in 2 years. That's why it would be better if Holland lost or drew against Austria. Than they really need to go for it in Czech Republic and than the qualities of the team might come together.. :)

[Fins Prompte]

I find it sad to see so many fans always wish the Dutch would lose one game to get pumped up for another. I understand why, but am disappointed. I find that Advocat has to be the one to pump them up and get them ready. The players too also have to realize that every national game is important and not disregard its importance.

Basten is too soon. I prefer to see him try to improve the struggling UNDER 21 or Under 17 teams first and if he can improve them, like what David Platt has been able to do with England, and improve their record of late.

[NAC-BREDA]

VDV i know what you mean but COME ON
Isnt it patitic that we hope that they will lose against Austria
so that they then will see HOW important the match is for us against Czech republic
and then they don't go play there with the attitude like....WE KNOW WE ARE BETTER.


Come on its time to work there ass out against Austria AND CZECH REPUBLIK.
And win both and if it doesnt happen then BYE BYE.
Its as simpel like that.
We can't always keep saying..""there good footballers and they play for topclubs""
NO now its time for really good results.
And it don't have to be with "sexy" football .
The only thing that i WANT and i think many other people with me is that we make it to Portugal ,NOTTING MORE NOTHING LESS.

[Interista]

You aint gonna tell me that v.Nistelrooy/Makaay and Hasselbaink are more creative than Kluivert is :laugh :laugh :laugh

Kluivert is indeed more creative then the other strikers. That is probably why van Gaal and later Advocaat has chosen Kluivert to play as a forward behind the striker. But he isn't a natural forward. Forwards like Micolli, Totti, Raul, Litmanen and VDV are much more creative then Kluivert. Kluivert is a gifted player but he doesn't play well with RVN and provides the wings with too few balls. If Holland wants to play a 4-3-3 then it needs a good creative forward and imo Kluivert doesn't have the adequetely quality to do the job. If you wanna play with Kluivert and RVN lose the wings and start playing 4-4-2.

And about Davids; it has nothing to do with Edgars game/form, Juventus just want to create a fight with him cause his contract ends and he hasn't signed a new one yet. That's why Appiah plays, they want to force him to sign a new one by not letting him play.. That sucks, but I can understand Juve that they don't wanna let him leave on a free..

Davids wanted to go Roma two seasons ago but Juventus didn't allowed him. Juventus wanted to sell Davids to Chelsea but Davids has rejected. So I call it even between them. Did you see the Italian Super Cup? Lippi made the right decision to let Appiah play because he was in a better form then Davids. Marcello Lippi himself has said (according to numberous sources including vi.nl) that Davids ruins the atmosphere Juve wants to create. Davids went to New York WITHOUT the premission of Juventus while he should have been training. And then we also have the van Bommel-Davids incident, and the hitting of his wife. Just add 1 + 1 together VDV. The guy is not material for the national team anymore with that enormous ego of his.

[Ross420]

Van Hooijdonk?! WTF?! :o That piece of cr*p?! :k***

Plus, wheres Ricksen? :angry:



Advocaat has lost his mind :nono

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Originally posted by Interista@Sep 1 2003, 08:03 PM
You aint gonna tell me that v.Nistelrooy/Makaay and Hasselbaink are more creative than Kluivert is :laugh :laugh :laugh

Kluivert is indeed more creative then the other strikers. That is probably why van Gaal and later Advocaat has chosen Kluivert to play as a forward behind the striker. But he isn't a natural forward. Forwards like Micolli, Totti, Raul, Litmanen and VDV are much more creative then Kluivert. Kluivert is a gifted player but he doesn't play well with RVN and provides the wings with too few balls. If Holland wants to play a 4-3-3 then it needs a good creative forward and imo Kluivert doesn't have the adequetely quality to do the job. If you wanna play with Kluivert and RVN lose the wings and start playing 4-4-2.

And about Davids; it has nothing to do with Edgars game/form, Juventus just want to create a fight with him cause his contract ends and he hasn't signed a new one yet. That's why Appiah plays, they want to force him to sign a new one by not letting him play.. That sucks, but I can understand Juve that they don't wanna let him leave on a free..

Davids wanted to go Roma two seasons ago but Juventus didn't allowed him. Juventus wanted to sell Davids to Chelsea but Davids has rejected. So I call it even between them. Did you see the Italian Super Cup? Lippi made the right decision to let Appiah play because he was in a better form then Davids. Marcello Lippi himself has said (according to numberous sources including vi.nl) that Davids ruins the atmosphere Juve wants to create. Davids went to New York WITHOUT the premission of Juventus while he should have been training. And then we also have the van Bommel-Davids incident, and the hitting of his wife. Just add 1 + 1 together VDV. The guy is not material for the national team anymore with that enormous ego of his.
Davids has been the only one in the NT who has reached a decent level in recent times. Unlike many other, he's really fighting for every ball, you can call him arrogant, agressive, whatever you like, but he is a good player who always goes for it.

If Holland wants to play a 4-3-3.....

....Kluivert should be the striker

He is the only one who can play in 4-3-3

Against Austria I'd go for a 4-3-3 with Overmars and v/d Meijde on the wings, Robben on the left and Overmars on the right would be good too. And Kluivert as a central forward with v/d Vaart behind him...

----------------- v/d Sar --------------------
------------ Stam ---- F.de Boer -----------
Reiziger -------------------- v.Bronckhorst
-------- Cocu ---------- Davids -----------
---------------- v/d Vaart ----------------
v/d Meijde ---- Kluivert ----- Overmars

:bowing :bowing :bowing :king

This is practicly the team Holland used to play well with. Only than we had Numan at GvB's place, Seedorf or R.de Boer trying to be a rightwinger and Bergkamp instead of v/d Vaart :ph34r:

Plus, wheres Ricksen?

Advocaat got a bit of sense :USA_Blue's_Smiley :cool

Ricksen is crap and shouldn't be allowed to come near to our beautiful orange shirt :Kenzo's Smiley :laugh

[Interista]

I agree Kluivert is the best striker option for a 4-3-3 system and I'm glad to say you picked VDV as forward and not Kluivert. This must be the first time we ever agreed on something :laugh.

I would however replace Davids with van Bommel to ensure the balance on the midfield and because I really dislike Davids :D

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Originally posted by Interista@Sep 1 2003, 09:33 PM
I agree Kluivert is the best striker option for a 4-3-3 system and I'm glad to say you picked VDV as forward and not Kluivert. This must be the first time we ever agreed on something :laugh.
Hehe, well, the thing you call "forward" is what I call "attacking midfielder". And I've always said that Kluivert is not an attacking midfielder, but a striker. And he's just being misused as an attacking midfielder, he's not the one who has to provide others, but the one who has to be provided. Most of his 38 goals he scored playing alongside Bergkamp as a striker. Since v.Nistelrooy got next to him and Kluivert got Bergkamp's old role, he started scoring less.. Kluivert might not be a striker like v.Nistelrooy who scores 25 goals a year, but if used as a striker he comes close to 20 and may even reach that, that combined with the assists he also gives makes him a good striker but indeed he is not a attacking midfielder..

btw; think it's kinda strange that many people call him lazy.. don't see many other strikers being back in their own box, helping to defend, countless times a match :nono :nono :nono

[Interista]

Originally posted by Van Der Vaart 23+Sep 1 2003, 08:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Van Der Vaart 23 @ Sep 1 2003, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Interista@Sep 1 2003, 09:33 PM
I agree Kluivert is the best striker option for a 4-3-3 system and I'm glad to say you picked VDV as forward and not Kluivert. This must be the first time we ever agreed on something&nbsp; :laugh.
Hehe, well, the thing you call "forward" is what I call "attacking midfielder". And I've always said that Kluivert is not an attacking midfielder, but a striker. And he's just being misused as an attacking midfielder, he's not the one who has to provide others, but the one who has to be provided. Most of his 38 goals he scored playing alongside Bergkamp as a striker. Since v.Nistelrooy got next to him and Kluivert got Bergkamp's old role, he started scoring less.. Kluivert might not be a striker like v.Nistelrooy who scores 25 goals a year, but if used as a striker he comes close to 20 and may even reach that, that combined with the assists he also gives makes him a good striker but indeed he is not a attacking midfielder..

btw; think it's kinda strange that many people call him lazy.. don't see many other strikers being back in their own box, helping to defend, countless times a match :nono :nono :nono [/b][/quote]
Perhaps you should e-mail this to Dick Advocaat, because you're absolute right

[NAC-BREDA]

Originally posted by Van Der Vaart 23+Sep 1 2003, 06:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Van Der Vaart 23 @ Sep 1 2003, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Interista@Sep 1 2003, 08:03 PM
You aint gonna tell me that v.Nistelrooy/Makaay and Hasselbaink are more creative than Kluivert is :laugh :laugh :laugh

Kluivert is indeed more creative then the other strikers. That is probably why van Gaal and later Advocaat has chosen Kluivert to play as a forward behind the striker. But he isn't a natural forward. Forwards like Micolli, Totti, Raul, Litmanen and VDV are much more creative then Kluivert. Kluivert is a gifted player but he doesn't play well with RVN and provides the wings with too few balls. If Holland wants to play a 4-3-3 then it needs a good creative forward and imo Kluivert doesn't have the adequetely quality to do the job. If you wanna play with Kluivert and RVN lose the wings and start playing 4-4-2.

And about Davids; it has nothing to do with Edgars game/form, Juventus just want to create a fight with him cause his contract ends and he hasn't signed a new one yet. That's why Appiah plays, they want to force him to sign a new one by not letting him play.. That sucks, but I can understand Juve that they don't wanna let him leave on a free..

Davids wanted to go Roma two seasons ago but Juventus didn't allowed him. Juventus wanted to sell Davids to Chelsea but Davids has rejected. So I call it even between them. Did you see the Italian Super Cup? Lippi made the right decision to let Appiah play because he was in a better form then Davids. Marcello Lippi himself has said (according to numberous sources including vi.nl) that Davids ruins the atmosphere Juve wants to create. Davids went to New York WITHOUT the premission of Juventus while he should have been training. And then we also have the van Bommel-Davids incident, and the hitting of his wife. Just add 1 + 1 together VDV. The guy is not material for the national team anymore with that enormous ego of his.
Davids has been the only one in the NT who has reached a decent level in recent times. Unlike many other, he's really fighting for every ball, you can call him arrogant, agressive, whatever you like, but he is a good player who always goes for it.

If Holland wants to play a 4-3-3.....

....Kluivert should be the striker

He is the only one who can play in 4-3-3

Against Austria I'd go for a 4-3-3 with Overmars and v/d Meijde on the wings, Robben on the left and Overmars on the right would be good too. And Kluivert as a central forward with v/d Vaart behind him...

----------------- v/d Sar --------------------
------------ Stam ---- F.de Boer -----------
Reiziger -------------------- v.Bronckhorst
-------- Cocu ---------- Davids -----------
---------------- v/d Vaart ----------------
v/d Meijde ---- Kluivert ----- Overmars

:bowing :bowing :bowing :king

This is practicly the team Holland used to play well with. Only than we had Numan at GvB's place, Seedorf or R.de Boer trying to be a rightwinger and Bergkamp instead of v/d Vaart :ph34r:

Plus, wheres Ricksen?

Advocaat got a bit of sense :USA_Blue's_Smiley :cool

Ricksen is crap and shouldn't be allowed to come near to our beautiful orange shirt :Kenzo's Smiley :laugh [/b][/quote]
----------------- Waterreus--------------------
------------ Stam ----... F.de Boer -----------
Reiziger -------------------- v.....Bronckhorst
-------- van Bommel ---------- Davids -----------
----------------...... v/d Vaart ----------------
v/d Meijde ----... Van Nistelrooij----- Overmars



Van der Sar out for Waterreus because he is still a good keeper but he don't get us points anymore.

Cocu out for Van Bommel cause Van Bommel want to prove that he can be as important for the national team as he is fo PSV and he work alot harder then Cocu.


Kluivert out for Van Nistelrooij cause Van Nistelrooij is just a much better striker and goal scorer then Kluivert.

And if there was a good defender i would take F de Boer out to but there is no one better at this moment so we don't have no choice.




WATCH OUT FOR RONNIE STAM NR 23

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Originally posted by NAC-BREDA@Sep 1 2003, 11:55 PM
----------------- Waterreus--------------------
------------ Stam ----... F.de Boer -----------
Reiziger -------------------- v.....Bronckhorst
-------- van Bommel ---------- Davids -----------
----------------...... v/d Vaart ----------------
v/d Meijde ----... Van Nistelrooij----- Overmars



Van der Sar out for Waterreus because he is still a good keeper but he don't get us points anymore.

Cocu out for Van Bommel cause Van Bommel want to prove that he can be as important for the national team as he is fo PSV and he work alot harder then Cocu.


Kluivert out for Van Nistelrooij cause Van Nistelrooij is just a much better striker and goal scorer then Kluivert.
why v/d Sar out?? He might not be what he used to be, but he is still good and simply, v/d Sar is better than Waterreus. So v/d Sar should be preferred.. Waterreus shouldn't be in our national team. Yes, he is a good goalkeeper, I don't say he's bad. And yes, he might be the best gk after v/d Sar. But, v/d Sar is the absolute number 1, he still is. Than I think it would be wiser to use Westerveld as reserve goalie and not Waterreus. Since Westerveld is the one that has to replace v/d Sar in the future. Westerveld is still young, while Waterreus is nearly as old (if not older) than v/d Sar. So I think Westerveld should be the 2nd goalie in the NT, looking at the future. He should already be with the group and get some experience IMO.. It's a shame for Waterreus, cause he is a good gk, but simply not as good as v/d Sar and too old to be reserve goalie IMO

Cocu out, v.Bommel in could be a good solution.. Dunno.. I've always thought Cocu was an important player in the NT. But against Belgium he was utter crap and it was really obvious he was getting a red card sometime. But that was only 1 match, can't really write him off after one bad match. But if Cocu starts playing worse than of course he should be replaced.. But for now I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, since he he has been important before and only played one bad match.. wouldn't be fair to put him out cause of 1 bad match..

Kluivert out, v.Nistelrooy in, I'm absolutely against. Holland hasn't won anything with this team.. but the things that were achieved were mainly cause of Kluivert. We can start before Euro 96. Kluivert was the one that shot us to that Championship when we beat Ireland in Liverpool. At that tournament, Holland looked to go out with a disgraceful loss to England, Holland was behind 4-0 and Scotland surpassed Holland on goaldifference and with that 4-0 Scotland would've gone through together with England, if it had stayed that way. Indeed, if it stayed that way... It didn't stay that way. Substitude Patrick Kluivert shot Holland to the quarterfinals by scoring the 4-1 against England.. In WC 98 he scored 2 important goals, 1 against Argentina and one against Brazil, which eventually kept us in the match.. but sadly later on we lost due to penalties. In Euro 2000 Holland reached the final mainly cause of Patrick Kluivert's goals. He scored 5 in total and was topscorer of Euro 2000 together with Savo Milosevic.

Kluivert has done very good things for our national team, without him, Holland wouldn't have reached half the things Holland has reached (Ok, we haven't won anything, but a semifinal and a QF at a EC sure look better than being kicked out in the 1st round :USA_Blue's_Smiley). Patrick Kluivert is the topscorer of our national team with 38 goals, he scored more for Holland than legends like v.Basten, Cruijff and Bergkamp did. And than to think he reached that aged 26! Now he's just 27, but when he surpassed Dennis Bergkamp he was 26. It's quite an achievement to be topscorer of your national team ever if ur only 26, at least when it is for a country who had players that Holland had and still have! Kluivert should get more credit for his past achievements, no he can't fu¢k around, but he does not do that! Like I said in a previous post, I don't see many other strikers being in their own box countless times helping to defend!

And v.Nistelrooy a better goalscorer than Kluivert? So far there's nothing to see of that in the national team! v.Nistelrooy has done fu¢k all for our national team, he simply doesn't reach his Man Utd level for Holland. He's more offside than that he is dangerous :banghead Kluivert's average goals per match are much better than v.Nistelrooy's average. Kluivert scores 1 in just a bit less than 2 matches, it takes v.Nistelrooy almost 2.5 match to score in the Dutch National team. Yeah sure, the matches v.Nistelrooy played were as a substitude some time ago, but Kluivert also hasn't been a regular starter from the beginning! And v.Nistelrooy has that disappointing average even tho he mainly played opponents like Estonia, Moldavia and Belarus. Kluivert has played many matches against the worlds best too, in which it is much harder to score..

And apart from average goalscoring, Kluivert tributes more to the team when he doesn't score than v.Nistelrooy does when he doesn't score..

So, if one has to be put out of the team it deffo has to be v.Nistelrooy and not Kluivert. v.Nistelrooy never proved a thing in the NT and Kluivert at least gave Holland some things to chear for..

And for that 4-3-3 system Kluivert is the better anyway, Kluivert has spent his whole youth playing 4-3-3 with Ajax. He's used to it. v.Nistelrooy needs a player next to him..

[NAC-BREDA]

Originally posted by Van Der Vaart 23+Sep 1 2003, 11:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Van Der Vaart 23 @ Sep 1 2003, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NAC-BREDA@Sep 1 2003, 11:55 PM
----------------- Waterreus--------------------
------------ Stam ----... F.de Boer -----------
Reiziger -------------------- v.....Bronckhorst
-------- van Bommel ---------- Davids -----------
----------------...... v/d Vaart ----------------
v/d Meijde ----... Van Nistelrooij----- Overmars



Van der Sar out for Waterreus because he is still a good keeper but he don't get us points&nbsp; anymore.

Cocu out for Van Bommel cause Van Bommel want to prove that he can be as important&nbsp; for the national team as he is fo PSV and he work alot harder then Cocu.


Kluivert out for Van Nistelrooij cause Van Nistelrooij is just a much better striker and goal scorer then&nbsp; Kluivert.
why v/d Sar out?? He might not be what he used to be, but he is still good and simply, v/d Sar is better than Waterreus. So v/d Sar should be preferred.. Waterreus shouldn't be in our national team. Yes, he is a good goalkeeper, I don't say he's bad. And yes, he might be the best gk after v/d Sar. But, v/d Sar is the absolute number 1, he still is. Than I think it would be wiser to use Westerveld as reserve goalie and not Waterreus. Since Westerveld is the one that has to replace v/d Sar in the future. Westerveld is still young, while Waterreus is nearly as old (if not older) than v/d Sar. So I think Westerveld should be the 2nd goalie in the NT, looking at the future. He should already be with the group and get some experience IMO.. It's a shame for Waterreus, cause he is a good gk, but simply not as good as v/d Sar and too old to be reserve goalie IMO

Cocu out, v.Bommel in could be a good solution.. Dunno.. I've always thought Cocu was an important player in the NT. But against Belgium he was utter crap and it was really obvious he was getting a red card sometime. But that was only 1 match, can't really write him off after one bad match. But if Cocu starts playing worse than of course he should be replaced.. But for now I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, since he he has been important before and only played one bad match.. wouldn't be fair to put him out cause of 1 bad match..

Kluivert out, v.Nistelrooy in, I'm absolutely against. Holland hasn't won anything with this team.. but the things that were achieved were mainly cause of Kluivert. We can start before Euro 96. Kluivert was the one that shot us to that Championship when we beat Ireland in Liverpool. At that tournament, Holland looked to go out with a disgraceful loss to England, Holland was behind 4-0 and Scotland surpassed Holland on goaldifference and with that 4-0 Scotland would've gone through together with England, if it had stayed that way. Indeed, if it stayed that way... It didn't stay that way. Substitude Patrick Kluivert shot Holland to the quarterfinals by scoring the 4-1 against England.. In WC 98 he scored 2 important goals, 1 against Argentina and one against Brazil, which eventually kept us in the match.. but sadly later on we lost due to penalties. In Euro 2000 Holland reached the final mainly cause of Patrick Kluivert's goals. He scored 5 in total and was topscorer of Euro 2000 together with Savo Milosevic.

Kluivert has done very good things for our national team, without him, Holland wouldn't have reached half the things Holland has reached (Ok, we haven't won anything, but a semifinal and a QF at a EC sure look better than being kicked out in the 1st round :USA_Blue's_Smiley). Patrick Kluivert is the topscorer of our national team with 38 goals, he scored more for Holland than legends like v.Basten, Cruijff and Bergkamp did. And than to think he reached that aged 26! Now he's just 27, but when he surpassed Dennis Bergkamp he was 26. It's quite an achievement to be topscorer of your national team ever if ur only 26, at least when it is for a country who had players that Holland had and still have! Kluivert should get more credit for his past achievements, no he can't fu¢k around, but he does not do that! Like I said in a previous post, I don't see many other strikers being in their own box countless times helping to defend!

And v.Nistelrooy a better goalscorer than Kluivert? So far there's nothing to see of that in the national team! v.Nistelrooy has done fu¢k all for our national team, he simply doesn't reach his Man Utd level for Holland. He's more offside than that he is dangerous :banghead Kluivert's average goals per match are much better than v.Nistelrooy's average. Kluivert scores 1 in just a bit less than 2 matches, it takes v.Nistelrooy almost 2.5 match to score in the Dutch National team. Yeah sure, the matches v.Nistelrooy played were as a substitude some time ago, but Kluivert also hasn't been a regular starter from the beginning! And v.Nistelrooy has that disappointing average even tho he mainly played opponents like Estonia, Moldavia and Belarus. Kluivert has played many matches against the worlds best too, in which it is much harder to score..

And apart from average goalscoring, Kluivert tributes more to the team when he doesn't score than v.Nistelrooy does when he doesn't score..

So, if one has to be put out of the team it deffo has to be v.Nistelrooy and not Kluivert. v.Nistelrooy never proved a thing in the NT and Kluivert at least gave Holland some things to chear for..

And for that 4-3-3 system Kluivert is the better anyway, Kluivert has spent his whole youth playing 4-3-3 with Ajax. He's used to it. v.Nistelrooy needs a player next to him.. [/b][/quote]
Ok VDV you told youre story and you are in many things wright but also in many things not.


Lets start about van Der Sar..
He is a good goal keeper but like i told before.....can you remember a worldclass save of him in recent matches...i can't.....example....look at Gabor Babos......he get us pionts for 2 years now.
I really don't see van Der Sar do that anymore and that for a long time now.

And we NEED changes to get everybody sharp because if we WANT to go to Portugal we need to LETT the players now that nobody is more important then oure TAERGET and thats EK04 not even Kluivert.
And i geus once they know that then they gona fight for there place in the NT but if you treat them like SUPERSTARS they gona behave like that and the result of that behavior is...no wk02 and fingers croseed about ek04.


And i really think its time for Kluivert to sitt on the bench and think about what he can bring to the NT and what he brought the last matches.


And Van Der VAART i really don't see any big changes in youre line up that would let the players think or worrie there place in the NT.


And its easy to put it on Seedorf and R De Boer but we NEED more changes IF we want to go to EK04.


And from the youre words i can see youre a Kluivert fan so you are not seeing it Objevtive.
Kluivert is just a player who must do his best and earn his place just like every other player and i would rhater see Van Der Vaart play in the first half and then put Kluivert in and hopfully we would see the Kluivert as we did see him 3 years ago.

And no matter what the strikers place must be Van Nistelrooij OR Makaay.

thats my opinion.

[Fins Prompte]

Pretty much all have been underachieving but have been winning. It is tough to say who should be benched or not, but if Kluivert is playing more of Bergkamp's role and RVn as the striker, then there is something wrong with that tactic.

[Ross420]

Originally posted by Van Der Vaart 23@Sep 1 2003, 07:41 PM
Plus, wheres Ricksen?

Advocaat got a bit of sense :USA_Blue's_Smiley :cool

Ricksen is crap and shouldn't be allowed to come near to our beautiful orange shirt :Kenzo's Smiley :laugh
Ricksen is a good worker :clap

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Originally posted by NAC-BREDA@Sep 2 2003, 04:10 AM
Ok VDV you told youre story and you are in many things wright but also in many things not.


Lets start about van Der Sar..
He is a good goal keeper but like i told before.....can you remember a worldclass save of him in recent matches...i can't.....example....look at Gabor Babos......he get us pionts for 2 years now.
I really don't see van Der Sar do that anymore and that for a long time now.

And we NEED changes to get everybody sharp because if we WANT to go to Portugal we need to LETT the players now that nobody is more important then oure TAERGET and thats EK04 not even Kluivert.
And i geus once they know that then they gona fight for there place in the NT but if you treat them like SUPERSTARS they gona behave like that and the result of that behavior is...no wk02 and fingers croseed about ek04.


And i really think its time for Kluivert to sitt on the bench and think about what he can bring to the NT and what he brought the last matches.


And Van Der VAART i really don't see any big changes in youre line up that would let the players think or worrie there place in the NT.


And its easy to put it on Seedorf and R De Boer but we NEED more changes IF we want to go to EK04.


And from the youre words i can see youre a Kluivert fan so you are not seeing it Objevtive.
Kluivert is just a player who must do his best and earn his place just like every other player and i would rhater see Van Der Vaart play in the first half and then put Kluivert in and hopfully we would see the Kluivert as we did see him 3 years ago.

And no matter what the strikers place must be Van Nistelrooij OR Makaay.

thats my opinion.
v/d Sar still does his work good IMO. And simply he is still better than Waterreus, even tho v/d Sar isn't the v/d Sar from 4 years ago anymore. But since he's still better than Waterreus, he simply should stay our n° 1 gk. He's simply the best!

and why should Makaay or v.Nistelrooy be the striker and not Kluivert? What have these guys done better than Kluivert? NOTHING!

Ok, Makaay never really got a chance, but v.Nistelrooy should in no way be preferred to Kluivert! v.Nistelrooy has gotten enough chances, but simply doesn't do anything better than Kluivert does! I'd wanna try Kluivert-Makaay up front (although Kluivert-v.Nistelrooy still seems the best couple to me, but it doesn't work. That's probably also cause Kluivert has to play NEXT TO v.Nistelrooy and not behind him, he's a striker and not an attacking mid :nono), but deffo not Makaay - v.Nistelrooy, v.Nistelrooy is the one that has to make way for Makaay. Kluivert simply has achieved more and therefor shouldn't be sacraficed at cost of Makaay.. than that should be v.Nistelrooy, since he never did anything special for Holland and he simply hasn't been any better than Kluivert in all the matches before. If Kluivert-Makaay wouldn't work, than it might be time to put Kluivert on the bench and try v.Nistelrooy-Makaay. And btw, Kluivert-Makaay seems to work quite good. Just recently, Belgium-Holland, Makaay scored while playing with Kluivert up front. And before that, Kluivert scored a goal, think it was against Germany or Portugal or somthing in a friendly, after a combination with Makaay.. They might fit better with eachother.. So, maybe it's time for Kluivert-Makaay up front..

In a 4-3-3 Kluivert should be the striker, since practicly all his goals he made playing in a 4-3-3, with Bergkamp behind him. He was really good back than, he is used to that system, while RvN and Makaay are typical 4-4-2 players..

[NAC-BREDA]

Originally posted by Van Der Vaart 23+Sep 2 2003, 01:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Van Der Vaart 23 @ Sep 2 2003, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NAC-BREDA@Sep 2 2003, 04:10 AM
Ok VDV you told youre story and you are in many things wright but also in many things not.


Lets start about van Der Sar..
He is a good goal keeper but like i told before.....can you remember a worldclass save of him in recent matches...i can't.....example....look at Gabor Babos......he get us pionts for 2 years now.
I really don't see van Der Sar do that anymore and that for a long time now.

And we NEED changes to get everybody sharp because if we WANT to go to Portugal we need to LETT the players now that nobody is more important then oure TAERGET and thats EK04 not even Kluivert.
And i geus once they know that then they gona fight for there place in the NT but if you treat them like SUPERSTARS they gona behave like that and the result of that behavior is...no wk02 and fingers croseed about ek04.


And i really think its time for Kluivert to sitt on the bench and think about what he can bring to the NT and what he brought the last matches.


And Van Der VAART i really don't see any big changes in youre line up that would let the players think or worrie there place in the NT.


And its easy to put it on Seedorf and R De Boer but we NEED more changes IF we want to go to EK04.


And from the youre words i can see youre a Kluivert fan so you are not seeing it Objevtive.
Kluivert is just a player who must do his best and earn his place just like every other player and i would rhater see Van Der Vaart play in the first half and then put Kluivert in and hopfully we would see the Kluivert as we did see him 3 years ago.

And no matter what the strikers place must be Van Nistelrooij OR Makaay.

thats my opinion.
v/d Sar still does his work good IMO. And simply he is still better than Waterreus, even tho v/d Sar isn't the v/d Sar from 4 years ago anymore. But since he's still better than Waterreus, he simply should stay our n° 1 gk. He's simply the best!

and why should Makaay or v.Nistelrooy be the striker and not Kluivert? What have these guys done better than Kluivert? NOTHING!

Ok, Makaay never really got a chance, but v.Nistelrooy should in no way be preferred to Kluivert! v.Nistelrooy has gotten enough chances, but simply doesn't do anything better than Kluivert does! I'd wanna try Kluivert-Makaay up front (although Kluivert-v.Nistelrooy still seems the best couple to me, but it doesn't work. That's probably also cause Kluivert has to play NEXT TO v.Nistelrooy and not behind him, he's a striker and not an attacking mid :nono), but deffo not Makaay - v.Nistelrooy, v.Nistelrooy is the one that has to make way for Makaay. Kluivert simply has achieved more and therefor shouldn't be sacraficed at cost of Makaay.. than that should be v.Nistelrooy, since he never did anything special for Holland and he simply hasn't been any better than Kluivert in all the matches before. If Kluivert-Makaay wouldn't work, than it might be time to put Kluivert on the bench and try v.Nistelrooy-Makaay. And btw, Kluivert-Makaay seems to work quite good. Just recently, Belgium-Holland, Makaay scored while playing with Kluivert up front. And before that, Kluivert scored a goal, think it was against Germany or Portugal or somthing in a friendly, after a combination with Makaay.. They might fit better with eachother.. So, maybe it's time for Kluivert-Makaay up front..

In a 4-3-3 Kluivert should be the striker, since practicly all his goals he made playing in a 4-3-3, with Bergkamp behind him. He was really good back than, he is used to that system, while RvN and Makaay are typical 4-4-2 players.. [/b][/quote]
I thnk we would never agree about this.
So we can keep on tell the same storu again and again or agree to disagree.


My piont is that i don't see the good Kluivert anymore and i think its time for him to go to the Bench and Replace him with Van Der Vaart.
Because my thought is that KLUIVERT is the blame that RVN can't show his super skills with the NT.
And V Bommel did play wit RVN and i think it could work out better then how it goes with Kluivert now.


But ok I hope Advocaat wake up and TELL Kluivert its NOW or NEVER.


WATCH OUT FOR RONNIE STAM NR 23

[footie_master]

glad to see robben in the selection...think he really deserved that...and i hope he is playing thoguh

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Holland 3-1 Austria
v/d Vaart
Kluivert
Cocu

Finally a better match again. The first half was ok, Holland already played much better than in recent match, only hardly any chances were created. But the players did seem to have a good attitude, they were going for it :) The first chance was immediately a goal, great long ball by De Boer again, perfect assist by Kluivert and very well finish by v/d Vaart :) The lead was deserved, even tho we hardly created anything. A shame was that Austria came back in the match about 3 minutes later when Pogatetz luckily made a goal, I don't think he knew he touched the ball that went in the goal :wacko: Holland still didn't create much, althought v/d Vaart made 2 other shots on goal. In the 2nd half Overmars finally got in again, for Davids. I thought that was strange, Davids was IMO one of the better in the 1st half, Cocu was the worst players on the midfield and too me it would've made more sense if he'd been substituted for Overmars and Davids woulda gone back to central midfield, where he's at his best. But Advocaat decided to replace Davids. Also probably cause Cocu needed to stay, to play in defense. The Dutch people didn't deserve to have to see Zenden playing any longer, so he finally was substituted too at HT. Strange was that v.Hooijdonk came in for him, v/d Vaart went back to midfield and Cocu played on leftback. It went a lot better in the 2nd half, Overmars proved ONCE AGAIN that he should be a regular starter[/B]. Holland was much more dangerous in the 2nd half. The 2-1 came after a mistake in Austrian defence tho, v.Bommel made profit out of that mistake, passed the ball to Kluivert, who controlled the ball, outplayed a defender and shot the ball past the austrian goalie. Kluivert scored again, and above all, played a good match again! Something really tells me it has something to do with the absence of v.Nistelrooy. In matches v.Nistelrooy doesn't play, Kluivert simply plays better.. He always was good before v.Nistelrooy came in the picture. Now, he also plays better without v.Nistelrooy. I remember a match against Portugal, he played with Makaay up front and he was better than in other matches, also he scored. Today without v.Nistelrooy, he was nearly at his old level again, he scored again too.. I don't think it's a coincedence. Kluivert is simply being hold back if v.Nistelrooy plays next to him, but Kluivert always gets the critics, while RvN didn't play any better and also never was any better :wacko: I guess it's cause he is always playing the nice guy on tv and Kluivert has a bad image :( After today I'm convinced, v.Nistelrooy should not be in the National Team, it goes better without him, he simply doesn't fit in the system and if the system is adapted to him, the others can't play at their potential.

Anyway, back to the match. After the 2-1, Holland finished the match a few minutes later, Cocu headed the ball in after a corner. After that the match was over, Holland was taking it a little bit easier and didn't really push it anymore. Still got a few chances, but no goals anymore. Positive was that Robben could still play a few minutes. With his first contact of the ball he immediately had more impact than v/d Meijde. Robben walked past an opponent easily, something v/d Meijde couldn't do in the whole match. Not that it was completely v/d Meijde's fault.. he wasn't included in the game very often.. He didn't get many balls :( He did work hard tho and went after every ball that went his way, even tho the balls weren't too well and a defender could get the ball. But v/d Meijde won some corners and throw-ins by putting pressure on the defender. So he did work hard, but with the ball he couldn't really make an impact, also cause he didn't really get much balls.

But Holland won the match and finally played a better match again, that was a while ago. Especially the 2nd half was better. As I said, that was mainly cause of Overmars, who again showed that he should be in the starting eleven... I wonder when Advocaat is going to see that.. :rolleyes: *sigh*

Marks:
v/d Sar: 6.5
Reiziger: 6.5
Stam: 7.5
F.de Boer: 6.5
Zenden: 5
v/d Meijde: 6
v.Bommel: 7
Cocu: 6
Davids: 6.5
v/d Vaart: 7
Kluivert: 7.5

substitudes:
Overmars: 7
v.Hooijdonk: 7
Robben: 7

[Fins Prompte]

Bravo Holland. Clinch a playoff spot now, hopefullythey automatically qualify against the Czecks in the next game. Bravo again from the Ajax players :). I tend to belive that the RVN & Kluivert teamup is not a good idea either, but what can you do? You cannot bench either one of them.

[Van Der Vaart 23]

Originally posted by IBES@Sep 7 2003, 04:55 AM
Bravo Holland. Clinch a playoff spot now, hopefullythey automatically qualify against the Czecks in the next game. Bravo again from the Ajax players :). I tend to belive that the RVN & Kluivert teamup is not a good idea either, but what can you do? You cannot bench either one of them.
of course you can, anyone can be benched..

but benching v.Nistelrooy is the most obvious thing to do, he never achieved anything in the National Team and ever since he was around Holland started playing worse. Kluivert always was good before v.Nistelrooy came, when RvN was around, he started playing worse, yesterday no RvN and Kluivert was close to his previous level. Holland played much better than in recent matches..

Hope Holland will play like this against Czech Republic;

---------------- v/d Sar --------------
Reiziger - Stam - F.de Boer - Cocu

------ v.Bommel --- Davids --------
v/d Meijde - v/d Vaart - Overmars
-------------- Kluivert ---------------

Holland should play with 2 wingers, that's how it went well before and that's how it went well in the 2nd half yesterday. Especially Overmars should play, but Advocaat doesn't like him or something :wacko: Overmars always proves himself, always makes Holland more dangerous when he comes in, but yet Advocaat always puts him on the bench again the next match :wacko: :banghead Cocu on leftback... He played there yesterday too and he didn't do too bad.. certainly better than Zenden.. If you asked me, it stays that way, Cocu is not a leftback, but Zenden simply doesn't belong in the NT, he's a disaster. Let Cocu be leftback than, even tho it's not his position :ph34r:

[FCBfurimmer]

did austria deserved to level the score, i think it was after VDV goal, polgratz or something lke that??

Nice to see you win again!!!

V. Hooijdonk-let him out-you have enough strikers!!!!!eventhall he´s freekicks are the best in the world(or at least they were)...

[Van Der Vaart 23]

austria didn't deserve to score, it was about their first time they came to our goal and it was just a lucky goal. I doubt Pogatetz knew he touched the ball... :wacko:

[Ross420]

Van der Vaart's goal was most impressive :clap