lack of technique and your league

[La saeta rubia]

Its astonishing on one level that england havent qualified for the European c/ship, but your record is so bad its only because the Premier league is big that gives us the shock.Since 1960 England have never won or even reached the final now in 13 tournaments when other small countries such as Greeece,Czechoslovakia and Denmark mhave even won it.Yet unlike in Argentina when we fail there is no thought about why you have failed only get brid of the tecnico.Why is this?From an outsiders point of view your technique is terrible and there has to be a reason why a little country with few resources can so outclass England over 2 games.Also when England fail after the tecnico is to blame evrybody else cheating Argies,bad refs etc.But really the problem is the Premier league with far too many foreign players and maintaining a style of futbol which is completely outdated.So rather than hammering another manager it would be better to promote more English players in the league and work very hard on improveing young players technique

[Bluedragon]

Totally agree, I thank the EPL, as it's making my country players better, however I thought Portugal were lucky to make it.

Alot of top countries struggled to qualify, look at Italy, France, Portugal, and more, alot of the big country really struggled to get results.

England's problem is too many foreigners, but it seems to me that the English people would rather brag about the EPL than there on country.

You might have the best league, but that's cause it made up of foreigners not English players, other countries are benfitting from the EPL.

Until the rules are changed England will struggle.

[Fredo]

Bloody foreigners.
They take our job, our girls, they rob us and make our cities insecure and because of them the national team is sh*te.

This is bordering racism/xenophobia.

Why are there so many foreigners in the Premiership?
Because the locals are not good enough. Simple as.
It is not because of inflated price, inflated price are caused by the lack of numbers of quality players.

If you bring quotas in, the quality of the premiership will drop and the quality of the English player won’t improve. The only difference is that instead of playing championship football, they will be playing in the Premiership.

Until grass root level is improved, the number of players playing in the Prem won’t increase.

With all their money, the FA should build a National Academy, bring the best academy coach from Holland, Spain, France or Italy, whatever the cost and get them to teach English coach the European football. Gather the best kids in their age categorys to be coached by the best before they sign their professional contract.
Reform the league reserve by either making it into a 20clubs league with the same calendar as the Prem with game played on the Friday nite or integrate the reserves to the lower leagues. That would give the opportunity to youngsters to play competitive football and show their manager they can be trusted. The actual format of the reserve is a joke.

The only problem is that this is long term commitment and the FA have no vision to implement that. All they think about is making a quick buck on the back of the fans. This is why they build Wembley and this is why they want the World Cup.

[gargy]

I dont think so.
Its so easy to blame the foreigners but its not very constructive. Where are the english technical geniuses rotting on the bench in favour of foreign talent? Nowhere. If you want to blame anyone for the limited technical ability of english talent, you have to blame the youth coaches and what abilities they value in young players. Its very easy to spot a physically strong player or a very fast player and develop that side of the player. And England has a good record for getting top quality centrebacks with those qualities.

But spotting and developing more technical players, playmakers is harder and can take longer time. But those qualities are not valued in the same way.

And then you can talk about the reserve leagues. In for instance spain you got B teams playing competitive football every week. The young players get a chance to play real competitive football even if its in the lower leagues. The reserve league is a joke in comparison.

Then you can talk about the cost of english talent. The price for a good english player is four times what you would pay for the same quality player from another nation. Young english talent are then often bought for extreme sums only to be a part time squad player in one of the top english clubs, instead of beeing a star player for one of the smaller clubs. Why dont they stay a couple of years in a smaller club where they get to play and develop instead of going for the big bucks offered by the top clubs? Or realise that maybe, even though the media calls them world class they may not be good enough to challenge for a first team spot in the top clubs and just stay in a smaller club.

I also think the english national team would benefit greatly from having more english players in other leagues. Other leagues are often ridiculed by english media for emphazising different qualities in their game. Yet a player can learn a lot from having a background in one league and adapting to the qualities most valued in another. The question is if english players will be ignored if they are playing abroad.

Ironically i think that over time Arsene Wenger and Arsenal might do a lot to develop the type of player england is lacking. The team that gets the harshest criticism for using foreign players.

[Tim18]

Sorry if I misread your post (only skim read it) but are you saying that England players lack technique compared to foreigners? I disagree because while our Premier League is one of the best leagues in the world, why is it that so many of our English players are able to perform and compete with these foreigners then? Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney all shine in our league, so I don't think that they are less techniquely gifted.

[Scholesy18]

Its astonishing on one level that england havent qualified for the European c/ship, but your record is so bad its only because the Premier league is big that gives us the shock.Since 1960 England have never won or even reached the final now in 13 tournaments when other small countries such as Greeece,Czechoslovakia and Denmark mhave even won it.Yet unlike in Argentina when we fail there is no thought about why you have failed only get brid of the tecnico.Why is this?From an outsiders point of view your technique is terrible and there has to be a reason why a little country with few resources can so outclass England over 2 games.Also when England fail after the tecnico is to blame evrybody else cheating Argies,bad refs etc.But really the problem is the Premier league with far too many foreign players and maintaining a style of futbol which is completely outdated.So rather than hammering another manager it would be better to promote more English players in the league and work very hard on improveing young players technique
I've been saying an inability in the England team to keep possesion and the training of kids at grassroots level is pretty much a reason why England just can't succeed for a long time now. This seriously has to be reviewed. The emphasis in England you see is to focus on the physical side of the game at a young age, our coaches limit creativity and imagination and if a kid tries something extraordinary and fails he is slammed by the coach. You simply can't expect a young player to develop when you put him on a full sized pitch with 21 other players. I speak from a bit of experience, as i've previously lived in England, before moving to Africa where i've had a Brazillian coach. In Latin American countries, the use of the sole of the foot is so important and it is something they train on regularly. The most perfect example i can think of to highlight just how big a problem keeping possesion in the England team is the 2002 world cup. England were completely outpassed by 10 man Brazil in a quarterfinal, was unbeleivable to watch really. The foreigners point is a fair one, however for me i disagree, yes the current batch of young players may find it difficult to break through in the first team at their clubs, however the next generation of players who will have wathced these foreigners every week will surely have learnt a great deal and stand a much higher chance of breaking through.

The mentality of an English fan is another thing that has to change if England is to progress. Passion seems to rank higher than the ability of a footballer to use his brain and speed of thought in a game, possibly why many regard Terry to be better than Ferdinand despite the latter having a much better positional sense and outshining the former in almost every International game. Passion and commitment is terrific, but not all out, you need to actually be able to use the ball rather than running around like a headless chicken.

In my opinion if Paul Scholes was still playing in the England midfield, you would have qualified, he is the most technically gifted English footballer by far, and would have made a massive difference imo.

[gargy]

Sorry if I misread your post (only skim read it) but are you saying that England players lack technique compared to foreigners? I disagree because while our Premier League is one of the best leagues in the world, why is it that so many of our English players are able to perform and compete with these foreigners then? Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney all shine in our league, so I don't think that they are less techniquely gifted.

Because all of the teams they play in have plenty of foreign technically gifted players. Its a question of getting a certain balance to the team. Try taking your favourite team and replace your foreign stars with english players.

[Fredo]

Sorry if I misread your post (only skim read it) but are you saying that England players lack technique compared to foreigners? I disagree because while our Premier League is one of the best leagues in the world, why is it that so many of our English players are able to perform and compete with these foreigners then? Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney all shine in our league, so I don't think that they are less techniquely gifted.

I wouldnt go as far as saying that the foreigners beside them make them look good but why is it Gerrard and Lampard have such poor ball control, can't pass to a teammate 2yards away from them and constantly lump the ball forward even when there is no one there?
This is for the individual technqiue part but collectiveley, there is no movement whatsoever which means whoever has the ball, has no one to give it to and end up launching the ball in the air.
When a player goes into a cul de sac, instead of going back on his steps and keep possession of the ball, he puts his head down and goes straight into the wall.
This has nothing to do with tactics, formation or coaching, its basic football: pass and move, keep possession. You don't need 10 Ronaldinho to do that.

[Tim18]

I wouldnt go as far as saying that the foreigners beside them make them look good but why is it Gerrard and Lampard have such poor ball control, can't pass to a teammate 2yards away from them and constantly lump the ball forward even when there is no one there?
This is for the individual technqiue part but collectiveley, there is no movement whatsoever which means whoever has the ball, has no one to give it to and end up launching the ball in the air.
When a player goes into a cul de sac, instead of going back on his steps and keep possession of the ball, he puts his head down and goes straight into the wall.
This has nothing to do with tactics, formation or coaching, its basic football: pass and move, keep possession. You don't need 10 Ronaldinho to do that.

Thing is, Gerrard and Lampard's passing at club level is much better than international level, Gerrard is always spraying passes left right and centre for Liverpool and Lampard's long range passing is second to none for Chelsea. Their movement and ability is top notch when playing for their clubs. They just can't seem to transfer this onto the international stage, but I don't think they lack any technical ability than other foreign players.

Maybe you could say that they seem to not play with their heads much and are not good at slowing down the game and keeping possession which is a very european style of play compared to the Premiership where it is end to end attacking flowing football. This is why they get found out in the international stage but saying they lack technique compared to foreign players is wrong because they definitely have technique, they just need to use their heads more.

Because all of the teams they play in have plenty of foreign technically gifted players. Its a question of getting a certain balance to the team. Try taking your favourite team and replace your foreign stars with english players.

I see what you mean, but if you do that in Spain, Italy or any other nation, the same thing will happen. The fact that Gerrard stands out in a team with loads of foreign players must show that he doesn't lack much techique compared to his teammates.

[Overrated_Fool]

I've been saying an inability in the England team to keep possesion and the training of kids at grassroots level is pretty much a reason why England just can't succeed for a long time now. This seriously has to be reviewed. The emphasis in England you see is to focus on the physical side of the game at a young age, our coaches limit creativity and imagination and if a kid tries something extraordinary and fails he is slammed by the coach. You simply can't expect a young player to develop when you put him on a full sized pitch with 21 other players. I speak from a bit of experience, as i've previously lived in England, before moving to Africa where i've had a Brazillian coach. In Latin American countries, the use of the sole of the foot is so important and it is something they train on regularly. The most perfect example i can think of to highlight just how big a problem keeping possesion in the England team is the 2002 world cup. England were completely outpassed by 10 man Brazil in a quarterfinal, was unbeleivable to watch really. The foreigners point is a fair one, however for me i disagree, yes the current batch of young players may find it difficult to break through in the first team at their clubs, however the next generation of players who will have wathced these foreigners every week will surely have learnt a great deal and stand a much higher chance of breaking through.

The mentality of an English fan is another thing that has to change if England is to progress. Passion seems to rank higher than the ability of a footballer to use his brain and speed of thought in a game, possibly why many regard Terry to be better than Ferdinand despite the latter having a much better positional sense and outshining the former in almost every International game. Passion and commitment is terrific, but not all out, you need to actually be able to use the ball rather than running around like a headless chicken.

In my opinion if Paul Scholes was still playing in the England midfield, you would have qualified, he is the most technically gifted English footballer by far, and would have made a massive difference imo.

Top post as always Scholesy :clap

[-Orion-]

Let me tell you it's a lot bigger than one thing or the other... This is a huge issue

One: English xenophobia. They won't go abroad... these other guys are going abroad to expand their game...if a Spanish guy is a pussy, he'll go to England to get physical, if an Argentine is a headless chicken, he'll go to Italy to improve his awareness and game intelligence...whatever... One thing England don't do is leave England...every other country does... Italy don't tend to either, which is why they do have certain limitations (they are quite one dimensional, and can be exposed as such, but they make up for it with other attributes I'll get into later)

Two: Glory. Peter Crouch would rather sit on the bench for the Pool than start for Villa... Bent would rather sit on the bench for Spurs than have stayed with Charlton and fired them back up (same could even be said for Defoe/West Ham) - Andy Johnson got noticed this way...while those idiots were sitting on the bench, Johnson - rightly or wrongly - got the nod ahead of them because he was banging goals in consistently... These guys would rather get overpaid and "fight for their place"... I don't doubt in their heads they think they have a shot...but we can all see from the outside that they're gonna struggle to play regularly when they go to these teams, yet they go anyway...and they don't leave...they're too stubborn... Wayne Bridge: sub, Defoe: sub, Bent: sub, Crouch: sub...all played yesterday

Three: Grassroots. They discourage "ball hogging" and fancy tricks as Scholesy18 has said... They put the hard graft before everything, and that's not the way to produce the best results... the oldschool West Germany side did it...but that's one side in history, who consistently were a force via that method...it's not the answer... Nine times outta ten it's not the answer... The kids are taught to play as a unit SO much that they end up not having the individual skill to win a game... and they lack technique on the ball because they're told to keep it simple... Any potential genius they have is squashed outta them... Gago right now for example, at Madrid, I see him attempting outrageous passes... some Pirlo ****... and a few are misdirected... the dumb**** English commentary that I'm inevitably listening to will slate him...but does the coach stop him? No... and he's getting better and better at it... if he's SEEING those amazing passes...if his vision is that good, let him play how he plays... let him learn by doing... Robinho is the same but with different skills... dribbling as opposed to passing...and again it's coming off for him

Four: Domestic leagues... Nope, not foreigner caps... Germany is full of foreigners, France is full of foreigners, Spain is full of foreigners (not the best example, as they underachieve as well, but they're a damn sight more gifted than England, which is the main debate here)... ENGLAND HAVE TOO MANY LEAGUES... A tiny country and look how many professional teams there are...it's ridiculous... It's like 'cuz they invented the sport they feel like every piddly little down deserves to have pro status... it's retarded... Two leagues, three at the very most... that's fine... That makes players have to be that much better to make it into professional football in the first place... it puts more emphasis into development and less on what ends up being largely fruitless competition... Thing is, the nation is far too proud to ever go back on it now...and it would be ludicrous to try and suggest to town upon town that, y'know, sorry...you're not a professional football club anymore... it just can't happen... but with less quantity the quality would improve no end... Clubs would have larger pools to choose from



There's a lot more to it... I only scratched the surface really...but what's key is, England players need to have the balls to play for mid-table teams, or go abroad...they need to be able to succeed at expanding their footballing brains... As for working on their technique...yeah it'd be nice...but at the same time, they have their signature style, so do Italy...you can play to its strengths and produce results...play around any shortcomings you might have, nobody's perfect... but yeah... England have many issues

[intotheforest]

Let me tell you it's a lot bigger than one thing or the other... This is a huge issue

One: English xenophobia. They won't go abroad... these other guys are going abroad to expand their game...if a Spanish guy is a pussy, he'll go to England to get physical, if an Argentine is a headless chicken, he'll go to Italy to improve his awareness and game intelligence...whatever... One thing England don't do is leave England...every other country does... Italy don't tend to either, which is why they do have certain limitations (they are quite one dimensional, and can be exposed as such, but they make up for it with other attributes I'll get into later)

Two: Glory. Peter Crouch would rather sit on the bench for the Pool than start for Villa... Bent would rather sit on the bench for Spurs than have stayed with Charlton and fired them back up (same could even be said for Defoe/West Ham) - Andy Johnson got noticed this way...while those idiots were sitting on the bench, Johnson - rightly or wrongly - got the nod ahead of them because he was banging goals in consistently... These guys would rather get overpaid and "fight for their place"... I don't doubt in their heads they think they have a shot...but we can all see from the outside that they're gonna struggle to play regularly when they go to these teams, yet they go anyway...and they don't leave...they're too stubborn... Wayne Bridge: sub, Defoe: sub, Bent: sub, Crouch: sub...all played yesterday

Three: Grassroots. They discourage "ball hogging" and fancy tricks as Scholesy18 has said... They put the hard graft before everything, and that's not the way to produce the best results... the oldschool West Germany side did it...but that's one side in history, who consistently were a force via that method...it's not the answer... Nine times outta ten it's not the answer... The kids are taught to play as a unit SO much that they end up not having the individual skill to win a game... and they lack technique on the ball because they're told to keep it simple... Any potential genius they have is squashed outta them... Gago right now for example, at Madrid, I see him attempting outrageous passes... some Pirlo ****... and a few are misdirected... the dumb**** English commentary that I'm inevitably listening to will slate him...but does the coach stop him? No... and he's getting better and better at it... if he's SEEING those amazing passes...if his vision is that good, let him play how he plays... let him learn by doing... Robinho is the same but with different skills... dribbling as opposed to passing...and again it's coming off for him

Four: Domestic leagues... Nope, not foreigner caps... Germany is full of foreigners, France is full of foreigners, Spain is full of foreigners (not the best example, as they underachieve as well, but they're a damn sight more gifted than England, which is the main debate here)... ENGLAND HAVE TOO MANY LEAGUES... A tiny country and look how many professional teams there are...it's ridiculous... It's like 'cuz they invented the sport they feel like every piddly little down deserves to have pro status... it's retarded... Two leagues, three at the very most... that's fine... That makes players have to be that much better to make it into professional football in the first place... it puts more emphasis into development and less on what ends up being largely fruitless competition... Thing is, the nation is far too proud to ever go back on it now...and it would be ludicrous to try and suggest to town upon town that, y'know, sorry...you're not a professional football club anymore... it just can't happen... but with less quantity the quality would improve no end... Clubs would have larger pools to choose from



There's a lot more to it... I only scratched the surface really...but what's key is, England players need to have the balls to play for mid-table teams, or go abroad...they need to be able to succeed at expanding their footballing brains... As for working on their technique...yeah it'd be nice...but at the same time, they have their signature style, so do Italy...you can play to its strengths and produce results...play around any shortcomings you might have, nobody's perfect... but yeah... England have many issues

Cracking post. I was going to post but this greedy bastard did it for me :laugh

[mejulian]

I don't think xenophobia it's behind the English players staying at home, it's the money. Why would you leave your home country if it pays top salaries?

[-Orion-]

Yeah but Serie A had that mantle for the previous decade and even coming into this one... and how many people went there? A half dozen at most? It's xenophobia...but I agree, money plays a part as well...of course it does

[Defoe8]

Top post Orion :clap

The problem is though all the talented kids are snapped by clubs academies, so we can't actually blame the sunday league coaches.

Somehow the FA needs to introduce some sort of rule that kids in these acdemies need to take part in sessions that will aim to develop their technical game, even if that means using non English coaches.

[La saeta rubia]

I think you guys replies show that maybe the old days are ending and a new thought is going to be put into why the founder country of futbol has declined so much.I am old enough to remember the England team of the seventies and even late sixties when Moore was along with Beckenbauer was the most cultured defender in the World and Charlton a world class(I mean by this only the very best 11)midfielder.Not forgetting Banks in goal..Now England does not have any players of this quality.i think there are 2 main reasons obviously not being close enough as Scholsey who is a wonderful analyst.But sometimes the outside view can be close too 1 is there is actually too much money in your league and instant success is demanded and secondly there is maybe too much emphasis put on the physical ahead of the technical.The foreign players I still feel is important as no matter what people say in none of the major countries and I include Argentina,Brasil,Spain,Italy France,Germany or Mexico are there so many foreign players

[Dandy]

Why the **** would I want to leave the EPL if I can earn the most money here, speak my own language and stay in my own comfort zone, while still playing against top competition?

[blank_frackis]

I don't think it's xenophobia, it's protectionism. We have a feeling that our players aren't good enough to compete with a foreign influx and as such we should institutionally protect them to aid their development. We used to have this opinion about businesses - that we should protect English companies from foreign competition - but we've since come to realise that exposing our companies to the dog eat dog world of international commerce actually improves their standards and makes for a better end product. What is true of economics is certainly true of football and protecting our players would just make things worse - we'd have a league filled with substandard individuals who wouldn't survive in a league open to full competition.

What this argument is really about is trying to find a scapegoat for the real problem: the lack of technical ability in the national team. Many people will reject that because of the performances of the likes of Lampard and Gerrard in the Premiership, but I think this is wrong for a number of reasons. Firstly, the game played in the Premiership is very different from that played in international football. Whilst possession football is almost a necessity for every top class international side, the majority of Premiership teams employ a direct style of play that's ill suited to the international game. The Premiership is consequently a great environment for the likes of Gerrard - a great player when he's playing incredible long range passes, but a master of the short, one touch pass he certainly isn't - who find it hard to adapt to the international game.

Secondly, we must realise that the media consistently exaggerates the contributions of English players when playing for their Premiership sides. That isn't a criticism - I think it's natural - but it is a fact: Carvalho and Vidic are "good" center backs, but Terry and Ferdinand are "world class" in the eyes of the media; Alonso is a decent player but Gerrard is a genius; and so on. This is fine when we're discussing genuinely great players such as Rooney - and I wouldn't describe him in any other way - but when it extends to the likes of Darren Bent, Wayne Bridge, Shaun Wright-Phillips and a series of other average players who have been elevated above their actual level, it makes for a problem. The net effect of this is that when we put 11 English players on the pitch against 11 foreign players who are either little known, or little appreciated, we find it strange when the opposition is actually as good, if not better than our English superstars.

[Zelda]

Oh well. Deja vu. Your situation with the NT reminds me a lot on us in Ribbeck times in 2000. Rubbish technical inferior football, no tactic and teamspirit at all, foreigners flooding the league and no decent youth players. Aaah the memories.

Oh yeah know what? I´m fvcking glad that at least we moved on...:ninja

[Fredo]

What this argument is really about is trying to find a scapegoat for the real problem: the lack of technical ability in the national team. Many people will reject that because of the performances of the likes of Lampard and Gerrard in the Premiership, but I think this is wrong for a number of reasons. Firstly, the game played in the Premiership is very different from that played in international football. Whilst possession football is almost a necessity for every top class international side, the majority of Premiership teams employ a direct style of play that's ill suited to the international game. The Premiership is consequently a great environment for the likes of Gerrard - a great player when he's playing incredible long range passes, but a master of the short, one touch pass he certainly isn't - who find it hard to adapt to the international game.


Is it only a coincidence that Gerrard and Lampard play in 2 of the most dire team to watch in the Premiership. 2 teams based on results and not on how you get the results. Percentage football at its best.

The excuse of finding it hard to adapt to International is rubbish. During your 1st 10 caps maybe but after that, if you can't adapt, you are just not good enough.
It shouldn't be hard for a guy training every day of the week to keep possession of the ball and pass the ball when they are supposed to be the best in the country.

[leeman]

i dont think its a lack of technique per se, but a lack of time to develop technique. there was a good interview on SSN this morning where the guy (cant remember who he was) mentioned playing football as children. like it or not, with kids in south america and the likes of italy, instead of eight hours at school and then spending all evening playing computer games and watching tv, they wake up, kick a ball around until the sun goes down, play with their left foot, right foot and head, dribble in and out of bottles and cans etc and delevop their technique this way, and seeminly have all the time in the world to do so. the kids in engalnd may get a few hours here and there with coaches learning drills etc, but from experience, in that time you are not encouraged to practice with your weaker foot, and if you are, its for probably ten minutes a fortnight. its kids are going to get technically better, they simply need to play more while they are young and still learning.
i was always technically quite decent as a kid as i used to play every night when i got in from school and all day during the holidays, but as i reached 12-13 it took a back seat to my studies and rugby. i began playing again gradually at about 17 and it was almost as if i had to learn the game again. i had to make massive changes positionally to a deep lying midfielder because the only real skill i had left was passing and tackling, simply due to under development at key stages. im not saying i would have made it because i wasnt good enough nor was i committed enough, but the kids who are good enough need to be encouraged to play as much as they possibly can, work both feet, and dribble around cones until they feel sick.

[Stone_Monkey]

i dont think its a lack of technique per se, but a lack of time to develop technique. there was a good interview on SSN this morning where the guy (cant remember who he was) mentioned playing football as children. like it or not, with kids in south america and the likes of italy, instead of eight hours at school and then spending all evening playing computer games and watching tv, they wake up, kick a ball around until the sun goes down, play with their left foot, right foot and head, dribble in and out of bottles and cans etc and delevop their technique this way, and seeminly have all the time in the world to do so. the kids in engalnd may get a few hours here and there with coaches learning drills etc, but from experience, in that time you are not encouraged to practice with your weaker foot, and if you are, its for probably ten minutes a fortnight. its kids are going to get technically better, they simply need to play more while they are young and still learning.
i was always technically quite decent as a kid as i used to play every night when i got in from school and all day during the holidays, but as i reached 12-13 it took a back seat to my studies and rugby. i began playing again gradually at about 17 and it was almost as if i had to learn the game again. i had to make massive changes positionally to a deep lying midfielder because the only real skill i had left was passing and tackling, simply due to under development at key stages. im not saying i would have made it because i wasnt good enough nor was i committed enough, but the kids who are good enough need to be encouraged to play as much as they possibly can, work both feet, and dribble around cones until they feel sick.

Think that post is spot on re: playing culture over here. Football takes a back seat to other things and is more of a once a week hobby as you get older ... whereas when i was in africa, the kids were constantly playing against each other and practising. They would piss on most school teams over here in my opinion... not only that but because of the work they have to do and the diet that they have they are also far fitter and stronger than most lard arse british kids.

I'm the same as you, got back into football since i've been at uni and i'm back to being pretty good and its hard not to look back and wonder if maybe with some more commitment and everything if I could have made it to a decent level?

As for the england national team; their failure can be summed up in 2 words "over expectation" of the players to beat other countries; of the media that england are that good; of the fans that the media are correct; of everyone that the players are better than average... players like Lampard are labelled world-class and yet do not come close to the likes of Ronaldo, Kaka, Zindane, Vieria and many others. You look to the bench and who beyond the first XI will have impact?? Against Croatia non of the 3 forwards in the squad get in the first XI of their clubs. Says it all. Especially when there was no players from two of the countries biggest clubs.

[bambergascoigne]

Onions post was spot on, we have several contributing factors.

I have been saying for a while that we need to stop the country's best young talent going to the big premiership clubs, because despite them having the best talent, the best coaches and the best facilities, they dont produce sh1t for the national team. This is partly player greed in wanting to never play for a big club than to play for a smaller club, but IMO something needs to be done.

[Nick the Red]

The fact of the matter is that English players as a rule have never been as technically gifted as players from abroad. Not all foreigners are gifted of course, nor are all English/British players technically poor. You only have to look around the Premier League to see imported players with the touch of rhinos and who constantly give the ball away. Indeed Monsieur Houllier seemed to bring most of them to Anfield. The thing is though that in England, skill and technique are not the cornerstone of the game. Pace, power and at times brute force are seen as greater attributes to have. From an early age the emphasis is on winning and the easiest way to do that when youngsters play on full size pitches is to hoof it long to the big lad up front who muscles his way in and smashes the ball into the net. These kind of players do well until about the age of 14 or 15 when they aren't the biggest or strongest any more, but by which time its too late.
At senior level, again physical attributes and qualities tend to be more paramount than skill. A player who can beat 3 or 4 players is seen as being greedy or not being a team player. But the guy who can run all day or get box to box is king. Thats why players like Gerrard and Lampard are valued more than a player like Joe Cole. I'm not saying Gerrard and Lampard are not good players or that they are skill less, but Brazil build their teams around guys like Kaka rather than Gilberto Silva or Emerson, France around Zidane, not Vieira, even Italy start with a Totti or Del Pierro, not Gattuso. The other players then revolve around them. Yes teams around the world would like to buy Lampard and Gerrard like those who defend English football say, but they wouldn't become the central figure in the side, they be there to play alongside the playmaker.
I heard Harry Redknapp on Sky going on about Rio Ferdinand, yes he is very good on the ball, maybe he is the best ball playing defender in the world, but that is not his key role, defending is, plus when he plays for England, he's not asked to bring the ball out, too often he's expected to hoof it forward.
That said, technique is not everything, but England too often fail to do the things they are good at. They don't close down and press opponents, they don't play at a high tempo and they don't even get quality balls into the box from key areas. Look at what happened the one time they did get a good cross in on Wednesday. The side in 66, for all their spirit and determination etc, weren't technically as good as the Germans, but they won, so it can be done. Good tactics, well executed can over come shortfalls in skill and technique, but you need the right coaches/managers to pull it off, which McClaren was not.

[leeman]

this is the best thread for quality of post ive ever read on here....apart from this post.

[gargy]

I see what you mean, but if you do that in Spain, Italy or any other nation, the same thing will happen. The fact that Gerrard stands out in a team with loads of foreign players must show that he doesn't lack much techique compared to his teammates.

Well imo Gerrard and Lampard are good but limited players that is overrated because they are english and score a good amount of goals. Imo liverpool has suffered more from the loss of Alonso than they did when Gerrard was out earlier in the season. Liverpool also lacks top quality attacking players, especially on the wings so its easier for Gerrard to stand out. I'd also say that Liverpool fans seem to be partly blind and tend to judge players on "reputation" more than what they do on the pitch. Gerrard is the golden boy and can do no wrong, while for instance Kuyt is considered useless nomatter what he does. Would Gerrard really stand out as much if liverpool had Ronaldo on their team?

However neither Gerrard or Lampard was using their strenghts in the match against Croatia. You can blame this on the manager, but how is it that two so called world class midfielders can not figure out how to play together? Maybe they are too similar in a way, but its not the first time they play together.

[VDV]

Well imo Gerrard and Lampard are good but limited players that is overrated because they are english and score a good amount of goals. Imo liverpool has suffered more from the loss of Alonso than they did when Gerrard was out earlier in the season. Liverpool also lacks top quality attacking players, especially on the wings so its easier for Gerrard to stand out. I'd also say that Liverpool fans seem to be partly blind and tend to judge players on "reputation" more than what they do on the pitch. Gerrard is the golden boy and can do no wrong, while for instance Kuyt is considered useless nomatter what he does. Would Gerrard really stand out as much if liverpool had Ronaldo on their team?

However neither Gerrard or Lampard was using their strenghts in the match against Croatia. You can blame this on the manager, but how is it that two so called world class midfielders can not figure out how to play together? Maybe they are too similar in a way, but its not the first time they play together.
That is a big problem. They are like children in a way. It needs to be a certain way for them to be happy/ or play better in the case of gerrard and lampard. The system has to benefit them only, and the coach should have tried to do better. However, since they're both so similar, I can't see them BOTH starting for England. The thing is in Liverpool and Chelsea, they have better players playing with them in a system which fits them the best thanks to the coaches. That is why they shine in club football.

[Omar]

Good tactics, well executed can over come shortfalls in skill and technique, but you need the right coaches/managers to pull it off, which McClaren was not.


Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

FWIW, I don't think there's too much wrong with the current setup after the lads hit 12 years old - it's what's happening before that as has been mentioned previously. That's not to say that the system in general can't be improved upon, though. National (Regional) Academies such as those in France are one way.

I keep hearing about England's failure to retain the ball on Wednesday; that was not for wont of a player capable of doing that since he was certainly available for selection(Carrick), he just wasn't picked and the blame lies at McLaren's feet for that, which leads you back to the bit I quoted.