disgrace

[Timonator]

i'm so ******* done with german teams sucking in international competition. :Knob Seriously get those ******* fed up player out of this country, their life is too good with the millions they get to spent each month! I'm sick of seeing German teams with almost NO german player in the actual team!

Cut their wages, give them no money unless the win, ffs start to give hungry german talents a chance to prove themselves in europe and get those average foreigners out of here it annoys me big time and i've watched it now over longer period but i cannot watch this anymore...just do something ffs. I m seriously pissed off. :Knob Clearly something has to happen. Teams like Nancy, or Odense beat us with our own weapons. THEY FIGHT, they show fire on the pitch and with that they beat us...with german virtues. :rolleyes:

[Gerry_BMG]

LOL! Timo the optimist is pissed off:clap
well you have good reason to. it goes on for several years now...
what are the reasons that many times german teams crush out against weaker opponents? arrogance and thinking they will win easily? lack of tactical abilities to win against defensive teams? or are we just not good enough?

I am getting used to it though... if it wont get better soon, we will loose the 2nd guaranteed CL place

Asamoah got injured. Looks like it is serious, broke his leg? Get well soon Asa

[Valmiki]

Gerry, you have a job to do, please check uefa cup thread.

[Distant Voices]

Hertha had 6 German players -most of them young

Odense are a tough opponent to get at this stage

I agree though-German teams lack "conviction" in Europe.

Timo-look at the record in the 1980s..not great either...so that is the way it goes-all teams are organised today to compete with our organisation and physical-technique is where we fall and defending-once a German virtue-is average at times with all teams

First negative post from Timo I have ever seen!! Welcome to the other side..it gets worse..trust me

[Distant Voices]

Or are we talking about Schalke ?

So many to chose !!

[palmerq]

i think many germans teams are badly managed, people say ahhhh it is money but i think this is an excuse. Teams like lyon and psv are not as rich as bayern but still they do better than bayern, lyon especially and even after they lost their manager. Even porto who are from western europes eastern european state like country of portugal won the uefa cup and champions league with good managment and clever signings :S. Therefore i think german teams need to improve their management, i think foreigners are not the problem but i think they sign the wrong ones so better scouting system also, players like emerson and lucio started off in europe in germany so germans can get good players. I forget what i was talking about to start with but all in all i think money is used as an excuse by germans and even now german teams are losing to teams who are much poorer than them like nancy and odense today, so giving these fellows even more is not a good idea, first the management has to be sortd out.

[Timonator]

palm i totally agree. nuv said.

The only manager i would keep in the Bundesliga were Hoeness and Aloffs. They KNOW how to lead a club, who to buy and who to sell. They find the perfect mix of giving hungry german talents a chance and having quality(not quantity!!!) foreigners in their teams.

When i see that teams buy unmotivated average foreigners just because they're cheap...i could puke. :Knob

[palmerq]

also i forgot, but i think bremen are good example of how good management can work they signed klose cheap and frings also maybe only cos them ismael:S and they perform well in europe in the last two seasons they have just been unlucky with champions league draw, so i think improve management is most important and then money will follow the succes that good management brings or something like that :S.

[palmerq]

palm i totally agree. nuv said.
and i agree that you agree, do you agree :S
infact timo i think germany needs more dutch managers they are good except the advocaat

[Schwalker]

Or are we talking about Schalke ?

So many to chose !!

Naah, we are talking about Chelsea...:laugh


And just for the record Schalke fielded three young talented Germans..apart from ol ' Rost of course.

The truth is of course that the bundesliga lack the pace of the PL. The technical abilities of LL. The killer instinct of CA and the hunger of the minor leagues...:rolleyes:

[Distant Voices]

Wages in the English, Spain and Italian leagues are 40% higher than BL.
The best managers for me are Benitez, Mourinho-both attracted to the English league by $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as are the top players.

Yes Porto were a 2 year success but lost their top players and coach to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Language/cultural links with Spain and Argentian/Brazil which Germany does not have.
Palmerq-why dont Rangers or Celtic do well-lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$ or poor management ?

[palmerq]

well a mix of all of all bad management little money, but i think mainly the fact that scotland is a country of 5 million people which is very small so i think they do not do so bad for a country this size :S celtic got to the uefa cup final a few years ago and from time to time they put in good performances.

[Timonator]

Naah, we are talking about Chelsea...:laugh


And just for the record Schalke fielded three young talented Germans..apart from ol ' Rost of course.

The truth is of course that the bundesliga lack the pace of the PL. The technical abilities of LL. The killer instinct of CA and the hunger of the minor leagues...:rolleyes:


ah and by that you mean Kuranyi:rolleyes: (hardly a talent with his age!) Özil and??

this was your starting 11 or am i wrong:

Rost-Rafinha-Bordon-Rodriguez-Kobiashvilli-hamit altintop-Bajramovic-Lincoln-Özil-Halil Altintop-Kuranyi

[Distant Voices]

Money is not everything but it guarantees you winning 7/10 times
at least

Porto had their day and suffered for it

Stuttgart came second in the BL and suffered for it-the rich clubs usually win out in the end

[Timonator]

But Distant with a good mangement Stuttgart would be still up there! Don't try to deny the fact that we are average at the moment because our stupid idiotic mangement couldn't IMPROVE the team...instead of imporving they made us weaker by letting Hleb and some other key player go (for a few million Euros) and bought **** instead. Thanks to those ****s we are down there...they ruined everything in my eyes. so i do think that management is even more important than money. With the wrong mangement the clubs will still buy **** player! :rolleyes:

You know it hurts my heart to see Hleb in the CL, it always reminds me of his time here and those times were successful. :(

[Schwalker]

ah and by that you mean Kuranyi:rolleyes: (hardly a talent with his age!) Özil and??

this was your starting 11 or am i wrong:

Rost-Rafinha-Bordon-Rodriguez-Kobiashvilli-hamit altintop-Bajramovic-Lincoln-Özil-Halil Altintop-Kuranyi

The Altintops of course...They are German you know, or even more important..They are local boys

[Al_the drummer]

I'd like to add a different slant here, who the hell cares about the Uefa cup these days anyway? 10 years ago before the extended champions league whilst the cup winner’s cup was still around the Uefa cup was a prestigious competition which the big teams actually wanted to win. I remember Barcelona and Ronaldo putting away Italian giants Inter Milan in a fascinating match, you could tell it meant a lot.

Today it's all champions league, champions league, champions league or to copy distant $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, nobody gives a stuff about the uefa cup, it's a laughing stock largely consisting of mid-table mediocrity. Basically if you don't get relegated your in the Uefa cup. Teams like Middlesbrough getting to the final I ask, ten years ago somebody like Juve would've stuffed them in the 2nd round 5-0. Look at the attendances, some half full to their usual domestic capacity, not even the fans can be arsed with it.

I heard the icing on this particular cake earlier today on the radio; the president of Palermo actually said he wanted his team to be knocked out by west ham tonight because it was affecting their league form and served as a 'distraction'. Now it that isn't the ultimate denouncement of this competition I don't know what is. Sad really because it was once upon a time a great competition, totally second best today.

[Gerry_BMG]

The problem might be that we dotn have good coaches who know how to built a good team. Plus the coaches are dependent on the good will of the managers to get the players they want

[Valmiki]

Well at least Leverkusen won:drinkbeer

[Schwalker]

I don´t really care about the lack of money and prestige in the Uefacup...Playing international games adds a sparkle to the winter!

But in a way the Palermo boss is right, few clubs excell in the league if they are successfull in Europe..Unless they have huge squads.

[Valmiki]

BTW Palermo won ---- maybe we shouldn't want to win so we could win --- Am I making any sense?:drinkbeer

[ACBerb]

i think germany needs more dutch managers

Ahh... ya... and I was thinking it'd be nice to see an English manager in charge of the Saints!:ninja

[derejekissi]

Ahh... ya... and I was thinking it'd be nice to see an English manager in charge of the Saints!:ninja

Lots of comments and suggestions have been forwarded and let me recapitulate all these by supporting most of you.

The first and main problem of German teams today is lack of passion, motive and self-belief. Most clubs competing in Europe don't clearly know how to win against heavyweights or lightweights.Once they concede early or late goals they immediately give up, which was not GERMANY'S attribute at national level now and before.They don't fight back until the final whistle,their confidence is eroded and usually think that there is enough time to come back.

The second stumbling block to european success is the management aspect.Most German clubs today are poorly managed,the management is not visionary and makes hasty decisions to sell out some potentially strong players simple because they couldn't excel in the first year of recruitment.The management also usually makes wrong transfers without realizing the adaptability of foreign players to the Bundesliga.

The third problem is most clubs are trained by incompetent/inept coaches who don't totally know how to play and win in Europe.Only Bayern and Bremen have sound and visionary management.

As to money, I don't insist that money has militated against success in Europe.As most of you have mentioned,there are so many clubs, which are financially weak but strong on the pitch.Even the fact that the current German players or Bundesliga players are being paid higher income has killecd the league.You all remember in the 1979/80 season there were 5 bundesliga clubs in the quater-finals and 4 bundesliga teams in the UEFA CUP[Bayern,KAISERSLAUTERN,Entract Frankfurt and Borussia Moenchengladbach]in the semi-finals and in the final,FRANKFURT defeated MOENCHENGLADBACH .The then Bundesliga players were by far less paid than today.Then,how do you assert money is an obstacle to European success?

[palmerq]

Ahh... ya... and I was thinking it'd be nice to see an English manager in charge of the Saints!:ninjaaha al your plan has a flaw english managers are rubbish:cool the dutch are ok :S

[scorpion2a]

all in all i think money is used as an excuse by germans and even now german teams are losing to teams who are much poorer than them like nancy and odense today, so giving these fellows even more is not a good idea, first the management has to be sortd out.
Well said Palmerq. We have many rich teams who couldn't achieve anything in the CL (Chelsea, Man U) and teams loaded with stars that couldn't translate it into good performance (R Madrid, Juve).
I think Bayern should invest more in good strikers & in good coaching. Why don't they try to recruit Daum or Neumeyer.

[Timonator]

My goodness. Here we go again. Leverkusen lost again...AGAINST Dinamo Bukarest!!!

This is so fvcking ridiculous. :rolleyes: We're gonna lose our 3rd CL spot. :( What the hell is wrong with our teams? Out of 9 games we won 1 game in the Uefa-Cup!!!!!!

[Distant Voices]

Leverkusen are not a very good team-particularly defensively
Madouni, Stenman etc are very average -they really miss Nowotny who was the base for their excellent form at the end of last season

Kiessling needs to get out of there

Anyone know what ever happened to Michael Zepek ?
I do not even see his name even in the Oberliga

[derejekissi]

Leverkusen are not a very good team-particularly defensively
Madouni, Stenman etc are very average -they really miss Nowotny who was the base for their excellent form at the end of last season

Kiessling needs to get out of there

Anyone know what ever happened to Michael Zepek ?
I do not even see his name even in the Oberliga

There is nothing more disappointing than seeing Leverkusen,my second club next to Bremen,fall abruptly and very unexpectedly after reaching the final of Europea's prestigious final in 2002.Who can believe when Leverkusen is really struggling to score even against mediocre East European clubs and when its chance of reaching the last 32 is hanging in the thread?

Who is responsible for this club's downfall? The management?,Rudi Voeller?, Skibbe?,The players? Their small capacity but beautiful stadium? The root cause of their shrinkage must be identified and imminent solution be sought for this ailing club or Leverkusen is following in the footsteps of the already demised Hamburg SV.

I think that structural reform must be undertaken so as to rescue this club.The reform should start from a construction of a stadium with a capacity up to 65,000 seats upto and including employing well-versed and tactician coach,who can transform this club from the deep state they are in to where they should belong in Europe.That is, transitory solution is not enough for Leverkusen,but durable solution is indispensable.

[Valmiki]

Very depressing stuff

[matrix666777]

Let's hope Werder get's through last 32 in Champions League. That would be the only bright spot.....

[Distant Voices]

Leverkusen's decline can be traced back to the summer of 2002...Ballack and Ze Roberto sold..Kirtsen retired...Ballitsch, Preuss, Bierofka and Preuss in and later Lucio leaves

[Schwalker]

There is nothing more disappointing than seeing Leverkusen,my second club next to Bremen,fall abruptly and very unexpectedly after reaching the final of Europea's prestigious final in 2002.Who can believe when Leverkusen is really struggling to score even against mediocre East European clubs and when its chance of reaching the last 32 is hanging in the thread?

Who is responsible for this club's downfall? The management?,Rudi Voeller?, Skibbe?,The players? Their small capacity but beautiful stadium? The root cause of their shrinkage must be identified and imminent solution be sought for this ailing club or Leverkusen is following in the footsteps of the already demised Hamburg SV.

I think that structural reform must be undertaken so as to rescue this club.The reform should start from a construction of a stadium with a capacity up to 65,000 seats upto and including employing well-versed and tactician coach,who can transform this club from the deep state they are in to where they should belong in Europe.That is, transitory solution is not enough for Leverkusen,but durable solution is indispensable.


Erm...Are you aware that Leverkusen is a small city and a 65.000 capacity stadium would mean that most of the population of it must be present to fill it?
Bayer Leverkusen is basically a company club formed by workers in the Bayer coperation and it´s because Bayer sponsor them to the tune of 25m Euros every year they are even a bundesliga team.

So what I´m saying is that Bayer Leverkusen will never be one of the big clubs in Germany so they are doing ok being one of the upper half teams, occasionally they might have a good year and who knows, they might even win something but it´s not like they are a sleeping giant....

[The Southern Dandy]

It's amusing how people claim to be fans of clubs they know nothing about in the first place. Hmm.